SPEAKER_00: 0:00

All right, hello and welcome back to the Fractional Podcast. I think this is episode 79 and I'm here with- Sounds right. With my co-host, Joshua Wold. One of the two of us has been sick lately, so we'll see if you can discern which one of us that is based on our voices. It's the deep resonance. And we have a guest today, excited to introduce Brian McDonald to you. Brian, maybe, you know what, Brian, maybe I'll just hand it to you to introduce what it is that you do because- I think you'll say it better than I will.

SPEAKER_02: 0:31

I appreciate both of you having me on. And again, I'm Brian McDonald. I own a business called On Purpose Growth. It's a coaching and consulting firm. So we do fractional sales leadership, sales consulting, as well as coaching for fractionals, consultants and experts, coaches, people who are really good at the thing that they do. And sales is just this foreign thing that they either loathe doing or they're They realize they have to figure it out to be able to serve the people that they want to serve. And I've been in sales my whole 24, 23 plus year career. And I've just come up with an approach because I was never traditionally trained in sales. I've just come up with an approach that for me feels natural and authentic and it's not pushy. And a lot of other people love it. So I'm just out there sharing with people so they can never go back to corporate America.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30

Well, and Brian is not just a podcast guest. I've actually been a client of Brian's. So I went through his program and took away a lot of really great principles that will continue to guide the way I approach sales. And a lot of it, for me, just resonated with what I value. So, okay, I'll go into a bigger story about this. So I was approached by someone. I had my wheels turning, right? Like I'm in my fractional journey. I need to improve sales, my pipeline, my funnel. Like I need, like this needs to all get better. And I don't think I'm bad at selling, but I know that there's process and structure and like a way to do this that will make things better. So I wanted some help. And before I'd reach out to anyone, someone reached out to me and they were, and it was a hard pitch on, you know, they wanted me to go through this program and then I could join their podcast and they would highlight my business. And yeah, at first I was kind of intrigued. And so I sat through a meeting with this person and he kind of laid out his approach and, I came away just feeling... And part

SPEAKER_01: 2:51

of what he did also was putting you down from

SPEAKER_00: 2:53

whatever. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Yeah, so, okay. He said he was trying to pump up his podcast. And he said to me, oh, anybody with a microphone can make a podcast. And he didn't know that Joshua and I had been, you know, we were 30, 40 episodes in to our podcast. That we were, you know, not overly... proud of but it was special to us and we thought we were doing a pretty good job of it as a couple of guys you know trying to figure this out and so first of all there was a put down to a group of people he didn't realize I was part of and then he pushed his his sales you know approach to me and after that I was like yuck don't want to work with that person So I reached out to the fractional people, people community, like, does anybody have a good lead on someone who can coach them on sales? And I can't remember now which person it was that connect. Amy. Yes. Amy connected us. And so I reached out to you. And then the rest is history. I went through your program. And here we are today. Full circle.

SPEAKER_01: 4:09

Yeah. And one L.

SPEAKER_00: 4:12

Yeah, he didn't call me a loser.

SPEAKER_01: 4:15

One element of that that I remembered Lance talking to me about is he came away kind of second guessing his value temporarily. And I remember thinking, well, I'm guessing the person that was pitching may have had some insecurity of their own. And so they need to kind of ruffle Lance's feathers to make him feel like he'd be willing to buy. And that just didn't come off as something that I was looking at all the value Lance had created, what he'd done in his career. I'm like, I don't think you should come away from a call feeling inferior and questioning what you're able to do. I

SPEAKER_02: 4:46

mean, it sounds like that guy was making himself the hero of the story, which you shouldn't. Lance is the hero. You've got to make the prospect the hero of the story, right?

SPEAKER_00: 4:55

Yeah, keep going, keep going.

SPEAKER_04: 4:56

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 4:58

no, and so I actually did deliver that feedback to him when I followed up and said, hey, you know, I'm not going to work with you, but FYI for the future, right? If putting down another group to elevate your own product or service is your approach, not a good move. Anyway, he appreciated the feedback. I think he took it. So hopefully that's not continuing to be his approach. Okay, so there's the background. There's the story. This is how Brian gets to the show. Brian, I think one of the first things that you asked me, when we had our very first introductory call was like, who is this for? And I kind of fumbled around, right? So can you maybe just talk to our listeners a little bit about, like, why do you start with, you know, why do you start there? Why is that the beginning? And, you know, what are some of the mistakes you see early stage entrepreneurs making in this area of identifying, like, who they're trying to sell to.

SPEAKER_02: 6:05

Yeah. So the reason why I start there is because that's the, the, the ideal client profile who you sell to is really the core of everything. It start answering a bunch of other questions that you need to answer for yourself. Um, and, um, when you go really general, that's actually the slowest path to success, right? I see a lot of people just being super general and, And then they struggle. And when you're not very clear, even your potential buyers, your potential referral resources aren't clear at all, too, right? How do I say this? They hear the words coming out of your mouth, but they don't hear what you're saying, right? And two, it's kind of like you got to know where you're going. There's a lot of like worry in the sales process or prospecting, like, hey, what do I say? How do I act? What questions do I ask? And the answers to those questions come out of who your ideal client profile is. And I've got something where it's clarity, confidence, action. The amount of clarity you have is directly proportionate to the amount of confidence you have. The amount of confidence you have is directly proportionate to the outcomes your actions produce. So low clarity, low confidence, low outcomes. So if you get really clear on who it is, you get confident. When you get confidence, the actions you take produce results. So that's why I start there. So the ideal client profile should... give you some of your messaging, the questions you ask. It helps you develop your sales process. It helps you figure out where to go, who to hang out with. And it just shapes your world rather than you wake and then you know what to do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis versus waking up every day and going, now what? I'm just going to go post on LinkedIn and hopefully leads come in, right? So it's really important because... When people lack clarity, they lack direction. They're just doing things aimlessly. It's like Amy that introduced us, when she got really clear on who she was going after, she filled up her time. She went from, I don't have anybody, to, oh my God, I have more prospects than I have time to fill. How do I choose which one? to work with, which is the problem you want to have, right? Like, uh, cause in the fractional, the consulting world, you don't need a hundred clients. You need three to five clients at a time. Right. Um, so in the, in the, in the, in the, in the vein of this, when you get really clear on your ideal client profile, you should be able to, people should be able to distinct between you and your competition when you're standing in the same room. Meaning, I'll give you an example. There's a client who was a fractional COO. But what he really was good at was PE-backed companies who are heavy supply chain that are either adding facilities, like adding locations or contracting locations. When he got really clear about that, he went into the marketplace and declared that his sales took off. because people could tell the difference between him and a different fractional COO, right? They were very clear on what he did. So you want your prospect to really understand that distinction. You want your referral resources to understand that distinction. And when you understand the distinction, you know what to say, you know what questions to ask. You just get this confidence that's needed in sales, right? Because for both of you, if you lack clarity in sales, what did that do to you? Like what, what, what was the, what did that create for you?

SPEAKER_00: 10:19

Yeah, I'll go first. When you, I'll answer your question by pointing back to the story you were just telling. I felt like I was one of a hundred or 200 or 500, a very flooded marketplace of a fractional service provider. And why would someone be choosing me? Particularly if I didn't have, you know, like if my resume, if someone came to look at my resume, if it wasn't as strong as somebody else's, even then I felt like my chances were even worse, right? So it's not just how do I stand out against the other COOs? How do I stand out against the other 500 fractional COOs or CHROs or whatever? And for me, I just felt like, wow, how can I compete against these 500 others when really what you're saying is don't compete against them. Just go for the work that's uniquely suited for you.

SPEAKER_02: 11:12

Own

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

your own lane. Own your own lane. So I'm thinking about this and the fractional work that I've done and how I've inadvertently stumbled upon gigs that turned out well and some that didn't. And through that, I started to find. So my role is I do product and design. And so already there, I'm not quite sure how to define that. So I run into issues with that often. But through a bunch of fractional work, I found founders that I was able to help them wrestle through what their offering is and how it works at the zero to one level, at the early stage startup level, to actually for several of them to lead to an exit. And I loved that. That was my favorite thing that I was doing. And I'm wondering now as you're talking, if I could work my way backward into a statement of a definitive thing that I know I've done that I enjoy incredibly well, while there's 90% of things within my field I actually don't enjoy, but I can do. So do you kind of shape it around what you know someone is successful at having done? How do you narrow in on that? Here's the specific thing as a COO that I'm really good at.

SPEAKER_02: 12:20

I'm going to kind of use some language that you said is, hey, what do you love to do? And let's build a business around that. Because you didn't leave corporate America to go get paid for a bunch of stuff you didn't like. That's not the dream. That's like you just traded one dislike for another dislike.

SPEAKER_01: 12:41

You just get paid differently for it. Yes. And having done this now long enough, I've found that I'll get very specific for a moment. Helping to define the user experience of an early stage app directly with the founder and wrestling through that together is one of my favorite things to do. And I don't care what tools we use, right? I might pull out a whiteboard. It doesn't really matter. But helping to be a sounding board, I've helped to simplify a lot of experiences and speed up development. And I love that. I would do that all day long if that were offered to me continually. But I've only had it a few times amongst all my clients.

SPEAKER_02: 13:22

Well, I would say then it's, here's how I explain it. When you When you focus on your ideal client profile, people ask you, what is it that you do? Never explain the what. Explain the who. Because the who is really what you like doing. You actually explained it. If I could rewind, I would rewind. Where it's like a founder that's struggling with this, that's trying to go from zero to one, from one to ten, and then exit. And they're having problems with product and design. I have yet to explain what you do, but I'm painting a very clear picture of who that prospect profile is, right? Because a dynamic that happens is when people sit in front of a prospect and they go, hey, you know, I get nervous because somebody asked me, what is it that I do? I say, no, no, explain the who, because you want the prospect to go, oh my God, that sounds like me. But perfect, right? And I'm not selling, I'm just... describing something and seeing if you resonate with it. And you're going to tell me if you resonate with it. And then you're going to go, hey, how does that work? Which then you just asked me to present where I didn't push anything. Where if you think about Lance's story about a guy like, hey, I'm going to do this. You're going to get on this. You're going to do this. The guy was presenting the whole time without asking, like, here's a simple question. Ask Lance if he has a podcast. during the sales process. Hey, you got a podcast? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. So I'm not going to poop on people who just have a microphone and a podcast, right? So it's like the prospect will invite me in as long as I'm just describing and I'm being really clear about who I serve because they'll then ask me about the what.

SPEAKER_01: 15:13

So are you... Assuming that everyone you're talking to has some value they can give to somebody, is that kind of the state that you're coming from? Or are some people you're like, well, probably you're not ready to provide value, maybe gain some more expertise first?

SPEAKER_02: 15:29

So I'll answer it this way. Yeah. I believe everybody does have some value. I'm finding out if they're willing to go all in on it or not. Because some people just want to be like all over the place and I can't help that. You have to be like, ah, like I know what I want. I just can't articulate it. Right. Because that's like just helping somebody do what they do, what they love. Right. And kind of something I just said to you is I don't believe people in the fractional consulting world ever have to do or get paid for anything that they don't like. Ever. There's more than enough business out there. Right. As long as you go all in on what you love and you get really clear on it, you can have it. I've seen it a million times, a million times.

SPEAKER_01: 16:28

Right. That's a very compelling statement. I'm thinking about of all the fractional engagements I've done, a few I absolutely loved. And if I could do those all day long, that to me is not work. Right. Because I was helping and I'm thinking of the who now. I was helping founders who live and breed their thing, but are struggling a little bit with creating clarity around it. And there was one founder that I gave my rates and basically he's like, hey, Joshua, we have more money than time. Can we double that rate so you can work faster? And my favorite client I've ever had, we worked together on and off for a year and a half and they actually... They exited one and went to into another and now they're profitable in their second startup. And then they don't need me any longer. So we moved on. But it's an incredible portfolio piece. And if they ever call, I'm more than happy to help them on small things because they were just such amazing people to wrestle through problems with.

SPEAKER_02: 17:27

Yeah, you were just being your authentic self doing what you love. And that sells a lot, a lot. Right. That guy was just going to let you do what you do. And he needed you to do what you do because he doesn't do it. Right. Like you picked as much as he picked you. You picked a great client. Right. And that's what I think people have to get the mindset of. Like. Prospects are choosing you as much as you're choosing prospects as much as they're choosing you. Right. In a in a healthy way. I'm not being a jerk, but hey, I'm building this business. Shoot, I'm building my business for a lifestyle. I've been doing this to build a lifestyle, to be around my kids, to do what I want to do and how I want to do it. It's my fault if I bring on somebody who just takes a lot of time, energy, and resources. It's my fault, plain and simple. There's more than enough people to go around. I don't need you know, I don't need a billion dollar business to be happy.

SPEAKER_00: 18:37

Do you think that there's a lot of, uh, entrepreneurs who stopped short of realizing some of what we're talking about because they're uncomfortable with making, so we're not talking about making an ask, right. But, but offering a service as of and seeing that as a value. So like, for example, right. If Joshua had not, um, basically said here's here's what i do to this founder who had plenty of money had a problem he was happy to spend money to solve right that's an opportunity joshua just doesn't end up getting and so like sometimes talking to other fractionals or early stage entrepreneurs they're really hesitant to like offer um up information about what they do because they don't want to come across as asking for something or selling for something and I think this kind of like tunes into like a mindset of like, do I have something that is actually what somebody is looking for and it would be a disservice to keep it from them? I feel like you do a really good job about like honing in on that for people.

SPEAKER_02: 19:49

Oh, I think it is a disservice not offering to people if you're really good at it. I think it's a disservice. Because if you're not offering it, you're making up their decision. You're making their decision for them. And you're not allowed to do that. Oh, I love that. You're not allowed to do that, right? I'm not allowed. Actually, I'm going to layer something else in here. When I'm out there prospecting and talking to people, I'm making requests and offers just because I want to know people's answer. I don't care what their answer is. That takes the pressure off me. And layered on top of this is the principle I learned from a guy that took a bunch of leadership coaching principle or leadership principles and applying them to sales. He said to me, and this simple, but almost changed my life. He said, the quality of your life personally and professionally is directly proportionate to the quality of your requests and offers. So therefore, if I don't make somebody, if I know that somebody has the problems I solve, Um, and I just don't make an offer or a request to talk. I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna succeed. And I'm taking away their opportunity to say yes. Um, I just know in sales conversations, there's more than one answer. Yes or no. Right. That keeps me from presenting. That keeps me, that helps me just be with somebody and, and not sell. Um, uh, Because when I sell, you get an experience like Lance described, where the guy was pushing. The only answer was yes. I'm layering all these things on, so you say yes. Right? And I think we're moving into a world where everybody wants to buy, but nobody wants to be sold. And if you start selling me, I'm running. I'm running. I'm going to go buy from the next guy.

SPEAKER_01: 21:51

What you're describing is non-coercive, right? It's You have the freedom, but I am offering it to you because to not offer that actually doesn't even give you the choice, right? So forcing you doesn't give you the choice. Not offering doesn't give you the choice. I love that middle ground that you're defining there.

SPEAKER_02: 22:11

And two, people want, how do I say this? People want autonomy. And when you give them autonomy, autonomy, you actually gain influence with them. And if I force you to make a decision, you could actually then regret it and bow out. But if I give you autonomy and you go, yeah, I want to do this, you're going to be a better client because you're more

SPEAKER_01: 22:46

motivated than me. So I learned this lesson years ago and I have to relearn it almost every day. I had a manager that, We had a lot of friction back and forth. It was quite challenging to work with this person until one day I realized their manager was actually the challenge. They were having to be an intermediary and they were protecting me from all kinds of just craziness within the startup. And I learned this idea, I'm sure, I don't know how I feel about the whole idea, but this concept of frame control, whatever. But what I started doing is saying to my manager, I know you're asking for A, I'd like to propose B and C for these reasons, but if you want A, we will do it. And I found that often we actually would get to do B and C, but I was not trying to force it. I was just explaining why I thought it could work, but that I would respect their decision. And our working relationship got so much better for the next year after that, where this person started to actually look forward to the alternate options I was proposing and often would try and see if we could go with them. And we enjoyed working together after that.

SPEAKER_02: 23:50

Well, I think what you just described is you made a quality offer to that person based on what was coming at you. And then they thought about it and go, oh, yeah, let's actually do that eventually. Right. But if you weren't, you would have forced yourself to do the things that you don't want to do and just that.

SPEAKER_01: 24:08

And then what happened is there was a few times my manager said, hey, Joshua, I know we really want to do B, but there's this crazy reason right now we have to do A. It sucks. Here's why. So then I'd have to go do A. But we were on the same page. Like, I understood why. We were having to do it. I understood the trade-offs, maybe the company decisions. And so I'd still go do it like, all right, I don't really want to do A, but I would do it with almost like a happy heart because I felt, I understood the reasons that were motivating that thing needing to be done that way.

SPEAKER_02: 24:38

This is where I think there's a crossover between selling and leadership. I think when you're, there's a point where you go into leadership, not pushing mode. I'll give you an example. And it's like asking the hard questions, making the right offers, not being a jerk. So there is a new client of mine. I was sitting with a founder and a co-founder. Co-founder was more of an operator. Founder was more the salesperson. But they're both selling. And the co-founder operator says to me after meeting with him twice, hey, Brian, this all sounds good. And... You know, we think we've got the strategy. We know all the actions to take. I'm not sure if we need this. And all I said was, hey, so if you knew what the strategy was and you knew what the actions to take, would you already be doing it? And he looked at me and goes, actually, you're right. I think we should work together. He turned on a dime, right? And I didn't tell him he was stupid, right? I just asked the question. Right. Like, hey, what would you already be doing? And then he came to the answer himself and then moved. Right. And I think that's how we should interact with people. I mean, there's a bunch of other stuff that conversation, but this relates to like you understood why you should do the thing that you didn't really want to do. And I created that same situation. Right. It's like, hey, you know, here's why. Like, I just came to that. endpoint with him in a different way. And he realized it's like, hey, this is why we're going to work together because I know what to do. I know what the strategy is. I'm not doing it. So I need somebody to help me.

SPEAKER_01: 26:29

So I've got a follow up question on this. Sales is still quite new to me. I've had some success, but also lots of failures, which is fine. Like I'm getting I'm getting more comfortable doing sales than I used to. I noticed that I actually, I have a great day job now. I do some freelance on the side, but I got to the point where I couldn't keep the business running. So I had to find a day job. That's something I kind of chronicled a while back. And I noticed when free fractional work, freelance work was going so well, I had a point where I had walkaway power, where I'd make a pitch to a client and they'd say they would push back on a number of factors. I say, well, this is what this is what I believe makes the most sense for you. And I closed more deals because there was I didn't need it, but I wanted it. And I've always wrestled with if you don't have walkaway power where you really feel that you need it, are you in a completely failing situation there? Are you just not going to ever get a good deal? Or how do you approach that where you kind of need the money and it is a great client and you're wrestling with that? Yeah, I'm curious how you think about that.

SPEAKER_02: 27:36

Here's what I would say. You always had walkaway power. You just chose to use it in the times you used it. Nothing ever changed.

SPEAKER_01: 27:43

All right. Tell me more about that. It's a choice. And I'll define it kind of the difference being, I know I have six months of emergency funds versus the mortgage is due in a week. That's kind of, it feels very different to me. Maybe it's not any different as far as the relationship with the client, but it feels different to me, the conversation I have.

SPEAKER_02: 28:04

Yeah, right. The feeling allowed you to make a different choice. Those two things aren't connected. giving the prospect a choice and you having six months in the bank are necessarily not connected when it comes to interacting with somebody. As much as it, yeah, it's just like you empowered yourself to make a decision. One thing I tell clients a lot is, hey, there's a lot of things that you do when you're with a client and they hired you that are really good in the sales process, right? Because you just forget when you're in this sales context, you forget those skills or you don't think they're applicable. So the reason why I share that is in the context you were living in, you gave yourself the ability to make this choice when you were in a different context, you took that choice away from yourself. Am I making sense?

SPEAKER_01: 29:06

Yeah. I walked into the call thinking I have to close this no matter what to pay the bills. And then you either get a, you probably get a really bad deal if you do close it. Like that's the reality. And ultimately it doesn't serve the client because you're not giving them the best version of you. It's really hard to do that if, if it's a bad deal.

SPEAKER_02: 29:25

Yeah. And the best version of you sells a lot of stuff because it's attractive to people. They like, they, they, you know, they, they want it, right? Like, I'm not sure about, I'm not sure what it is about Joshua, but like we got to hire him, right? Like he's, he's definitely got all this stuff, but we just got to hire him,

SPEAKER_00: 29:44

right? That goes back to your confidence determines outcomes statement earlier. Totally. I, I,

SPEAKER_02: 29:50

I probably said this, you know, it's in the sales process. And today, right now, as we're recording this in the sales process and in coaching, this is what you get. There is no difference between Brian in any of those stages. I'm unapologetic. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:06

I can verify it, right? Brian right here on the show is the same Brian in our calls. There's no different. Week to

SPEAKER_02: 30:12

week, yeah. And people appreciate the congruency because they don't meet a lot of people that are congruent. It's lacking in this world. So just the fact that I stick to my authenticity and my morals and there's no one I'm looking for and just my principles is people are like, ah, like, This is great. Right. Like, I know what I'm getting. And that's also, too, is is it it non verbally communicates that people to people like or they pick up like, hey, this is what I'm going to get. And that's that gives them confidence. Right. A little

SPEAKER_00: 30:52

little

SPEAKER_02: 30:53

try it. Yeah. All all buyers are worried like, hey, when this start is something going to be different.

SPEAKER_01: 31:01

Actually, that's a fantastic point, because I've had a few occasions where I've sold with so much confidence and it closed it. And then I was able to back it up with the confidence or actually maybe I fell apart and it didn't last very long. Right. So there's always that question of do you oversell it? I've had other times where I barely sold it and then they loved me because suddenly I'm like, all right, I'm not in sales mode now. I can now finally be the real me. And I'm saying this intentionally. Right. And they're like, whoa, this guy's amazing. But the few times where I've been able to be the real me from the start, I think they could see that I don't have any doubt about what I'm offering and what you just said, they want that.

SPEAKER_02: 31:41

Yeah, I'll tell you a story. We were talking about Addison in the pre-show and my very first job was in Addison, Illinois. I worked for a company and I applied for a marketing job and they hired me for a sales job. So I didn't know what I was getting into, right? And my boss had my territory. And I, prior to me, the sales manager, and I was worried about what people thought about me. I was nervous. I was anxious. And I realized when I would go out to clients that if I just turned off the sales stuff, when I just showed up and had conversations with people, they enjoyed me, right? And then about six months into the job, the sales manager started coming out with me, insisting, right? And here's what happened is clients after we would leave would call me up and say, Brian, I love you, man. But if you come back here with that guy, I'm not letting you in. One person, the guy, my sales manager went to the bathroom, a president of a company. When he went to the bathroom, he said to me, Brian, I swear to God, if you bring this guy in here again, I'm going to kill you. Like, do not come back here with this guy. And then I, and I was like, why? He goes, just watch the way he acts. So from there on in, I watched the way this guy acted. I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the opposite of that. And it was basically the opposite of everything that I was doing because he was trying to sell himself. He was trying really hard and it was a deterrent rather than an attractor. Right. And I, and, and, I mean, I was super green in sales to the point where we had, um, White Sox tickets in the club box level and you could get into this place and eat dinner for free. Like they were great tickets. And the first time I gave it out to a client, he had to go, hey, no, you're coming with me. This is how this works. I'm like, really? He goes, yeah, no, you're coming with. I didn't even know like when you get like sports tickets, you bring them with you. I was just giving away, right? So this was a great learning process for me because it was a great, because I learned what not to do And then I just had to learn like, okay, how do I master this? Just being me, letting go, being confident. And that's what pushed me on this journey. Um, because I realized like this stereotypical sales stuff, just, it doesn't work. Like people just put up with it because they don't, they think like, ah, like I just got to put up with this. This is how this works.

SPEAKER_01: 34:11

You, you've just kind of answered something that's I've thought about often. in social settings outside of work when you're connecting with people, let's say a church, a community center, something like that, you'll often hear, hey, you need to hire this person. They're really good at X, Y, Z. And I'll think about it. They actually have no sense of that person's expertise. What they're doing is they're judging the person's characteristics and confidence in general, right? Where I've worked with some people that they had never seen a single line of code I'd written, a single design file I'd made, but they were just confident to work with me. And there's that element of when you're not trying to sell yourself, if you're I think, yeah, something comes through that your abilities come through and people will see that.

SPEAKER_02: 34:55

Oh, more like it naturally. Yeah. Right. You're I had a mentor about 15 years ago, 20 years ago, maybe that said, hey, Brian, here's how you're going to sell a lot. You're going to stop selling. I'm like, what? He goes, yeah, I want you to stop selling people and watch how this works. People are going to be really interested in you. Right. Like, uh, because they think you're going to come at them. And when you don't, it's like this pattern interrupt and they, and they start realizing like, oh, this is just a real person that probably wants to just help me. Right. Like, and, and that's, uh, and then they're, they also make an assumption. They verify it, but they're probably really good at what they do. Right. And, and I'm not a con man. So like, when I tell you I'm good at, I'm good at it. Right. But, uh, but people just make that assumption. Um, Because of you're just authentic and and and confident. Right. And I don't think many people take advantage of that. Right. But you can. But I don't think many people take it. So

SPEAKER_01: 35:55

how far do you go with that in terms of not selling? Like, let's say you're talking to a prospective client and you're being the authentic you. You're talking about what they need. You're learning about their problems. Where does the ask come in? Where does the offer come in? Or how delayed is that? How quiet is that? Because you want to be true to yourself, which is not selling. Oh,

SPEAKER_02: 36:16

yeah, this is a great question. I'll try to articulate this. So along the way, it's asking questions instead of making statements, which leads up to requests and offers. So like, for instance, there's a company that came to me that we're out in Las Vegas. And They needed help with consultative selling and question asking. So when I talked to them, all I did was ask questions. I illustrated to them what it was. And I'm being authentic, and they're like, yeah, our salespeople don't really... aren't really good at asking questions. Yeah, but they ask questions, but they're not really good at it. So I'm like, okay, so instead of me making a statement, right, I'll ask a question. Oh, so when they go ask questions, do you just think they stop at the surface level and don't go deeper? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Okay, perfect. I'll put that in the back of my mind. And I'm just interacting with them, having a conversation, asking questions like that. And at the end, they're like, Brian, how can you help us? And my offer was all I did was repeat back to them what they told me. Like, hey, I'm going to help your salespeople go deeper than one level. I'm going to help them show up curious and not tell people things. And that was just me sitting with someone, understanding where they're at and what's going on, and then developing my offer from that. That's it. If that makes sense. Did I answer your question? Yeah. And

SPEAKER_00: 37:49

I would guess that you probably didn't teach them... like these trap questions right if you're trying to teach folks to ask more questions better questions they're not like the because I know that some sales training is like leading questions or you get people to say yes to something and then you follow it up with something where they're trapped if they say no to it like that's not what you're talking about

SPEAKER_02: 38:14

yeah it's more of curiosity right questions out of curiosity to create relevance because There are no trick questions. I'll say it this way. If I help us paint a picture that's really clear to the both of us about what's going on, highly likely you're going to say yes. Because you understand that I understand. And then I can tell some stories around how I've helped in that situation. And that's what, uh, and that's what sells. There's no trick questions. Like one of my best closing questions and I hit the word closing is, Hey, do you want to help with that? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, okay, perfect. Let's do it. Right. Like it's not a trick question. Cause your, your answer could be no. Right. But if you go, yeah, I want to help with that. Okay. Do you think we should work together? Yeah. I think we should work together. Okay. Right. That's how I should ask questions. Right. Like, and, and this, that's no, I'll say it this way. I'm looking for people who are looking for me. I'm just trying to find out if you're looking for me or not. And if you're not looking for me, I'm okay with that. Right. But for me to know, if you're looking for me, I do just need to ask you a bunch of questions and understand.

SPEAKER_01: 39:42

And that goes back to the ideal client or customer profile you defined in the beginning, right? Where you're, you know that if they're looking for you, you're the answer. And suddenly you have that confidence where you don't have to force anything. Maybe it's the right time, maybe it's not. But you just, I love that. And what you're defining, what you're describing, it doesn't make, if I imagine myself doing this in a future client sales call, it doesn't sound stressful to me. It doesn't sound at all like forcing. And it also sounds like if you identify that you're not a fit, You probably would do, and Lance does this all the time, like, well, actually, I've got a friend that could probably be a match for what you need.

SPEAKER_02: 40:20

Yes, that is always on the table. Always on the table. When people come for sales help, I may not be the right fit. I had a prospect come to me that he, in my mind, he's got a sales problem, but he's just looking for marketing. So I referred him to somebody else. Cause he's like, hi. So I was kind of prodding. I'm like, so do you think you have a sales problem? No, we don't have a sales problem. I just have a marketing problem. And I was like, tell me more about that. Like, so do you think, and then I was like, do you think it ever would be a sales problem? He goes, no. I'm like, okay, perfect. Here's a marketing person. Because he, like, he was never going to be convinced. He was so like, it's this and nothing else. I'm going to waste my time. you know, and waste my breath pitching to him. And then if I pitch to him, I'm just going to make him feel icky. He's not going to feel good about it.

SPEAKER_01: 41:12

I love that. And you don't want to work with someone you've coerced to be in the engagement, right? That's not something you're looking for. No, I

SPEAKER_02: 41:22

work with a lot of EOS implementers and they have a saying, which I love, is if you drag a client in, you're going to have to drag him out. And I never want to drag somebody out. I love that. That's painful. That's painful. That's good.

SPEAKER_00: 41:38

That's so

SPEAKER_02: 41:38

good.

SPEAKER_00: 41:41

This is good. I think there's probably way more that we could cover, but looking at our clock here, I'm thinking maybe this is a good spot. Brian, if I told you I was going to stop us now, is there one thing that you wish you had said that we didn't give you the chance to? I

SPEAKER_02: 41:59

would say it's in line with what we're talking about. I wasn't blatant about it. is if you want to succeed in sales, if you need to sell to stay out of corporate America and make your business succeed, the one guiding principle I would suggest is to detach from the outcome. Prepare for your sales meetings, but detach from the outcome. Just be present with people because they're waiting for somebody to just sit there and listen and understand them. And when you don't have to have the answer to be yes, you may want it to be yes, but you don't have to have the answer to be yes. You actually get yes more. So just detach from the outcome.

SPEAKER_00: 42:51

Love it. And how can, if there's somebody listening who's, you know, an early stage entrepreneur or more mature entrepreneur who's like, all right, I'm ready, I need help with sales. How do they find you? What's the best way to get in touch?

SPEAKER_02: 43:07

Yeah, my personal website is my last name, first name, mcdonaldbryan.com, and it's Brian with a Y. All my social media handles are that. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn, and you can also find me at onpurposegrowth.com. Okay,

SPEAKER_00: 43:27

we'll have those links in the show notes if you want to reach out to Brian. You can find him there. If you want to reach out to Joshua or I and give us any ideas or feedback on what you've been hearing or recommendation, you can reach us at email at fractional.fm. Thank you all for being here and we'll catch you next time.