SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to episode 81 of the Fractional Podcast. I'm Lance Robbins here with my co-host Joshua Wold. How's it going, Joshua?

SPEAKER_02 0:07

It's going great. I just got a run in the woods, which always makes me happy.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Great. Yeah, I'm seeing some blue sky. It's been a break between the rain and the unpredictable spring weather. I've been getting a lot of miles on the mountain bike right now, so really enjoying that. And I'm going to take my kids to a trail work party. This evening, building some new trails in Schweitzer's Lower Basin. So I'm going to chip in and contribute to the trails I like to ride. So we're here with a repeat guest. Happy to have Greg Story back with us. Greg joined us as one of our early guests, one of our first handful of guests here on the podcast. And Greg, your first episode with us was quite popular in comparison to... just Joshua and I sitting and talking together. So we were excited to see the audience react to your input. And yeah, glad to have you back and pick up the conversation. And maybe you can share with our audience a little bit about what you do and what's new for you in the last year and a half or so since we spoke.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me back. It's always good to catch up with you guys and and check in. So since we have talked, I continue to put stuff out there and see what's resonating. What's been really interesting is in the last year and a half to two years is that I'm finding that there's actually quite a bit that resonates with people, but there's a difference between resonating somebody separating from cash to pay for those things. And as we've been on this path, on this journey since our last recording, I see and I come across and I talk to a lot of people and there's a lot of, like everybody's distracted. I'd say 100%, but I don't think 100% of anything is possible. but there's a lot of folks that are an array of situations, but yet everybody's kind of of the same slightly, mildly panicked mindset, unsure. And so I say that just because, one, maybe just to share that openly because it's the basis for some of the work I've been doing recently, but also to say that it's been a challenge putting some things out there and making a success of it from a business perspective just because it seems like increasingly week to week, month to month, the world just seems to get a little bit crazier. Where I find myself now is trying to find what people need and what resonates, what I can do to help, but also possibly just to try to get an idea, like even the slightest idea of where everything is heading. and what I think people aren't seeing because they're either stuck on a treadmill, a doom spiral, or maybe they're stuck in a job and they don't have the energy to even look past tomorrow. I'm trying to do that for them, trying to do it for me, trying to do it for us, to see what I could see. yeah, just try to give folks that are in my sphere of the world a leg up if I can.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

So something that I think might contextualize this is you're someone who has evolved and shifted with an industry that I kind of grew up in, but you also were part of before me, right? You've seen so many shifts and changes and you've had careers, you've had companies, you've had multiple, just a wealth of information, a wealth of opportunity. And what I'm kind of reading between the lines, and also I'm cheating a little bit because I've been reading a bunch of your blog posts recently, is you've jumped into a different shift, which is a little bit different, where the industry has changed so much. It's left a bunch of people adrift and you're looking at how can you maybe come alongside and help people who are adrift and what do they need? Is that kind of a fair way to summarize that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yeah, it is. And I think to some degree, where I'm at right now, I'm not sure where this falls in the world of psychology, but I feel like what I'm trying to do now is just smack people upside the head and just get them to look up for a minute and look sideways so they can see what I'm seeing. Whether I'm not trying to be right or wrong, I'm just trying to wake the zombies inside just trying to get them to realize that wherever they are, what they're doing, I don't see it working anymore. And the sooner people can see that for themselves, whatever version of that is, I think it's going to help them move past wherever they are.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

And actually, this references the article, which we'll put in the show notes, which is Open to Work is the New Tip of the Sword, where you kind of called out that The industry that you, Lance, and myself have known, which is, for me, primarily tech, has shifted so much that there is no more security. There is no more expectation of you can just work in these types of roles, make this type of money, and just have this guarantee. You're basically saying that's all gone, and you're trying to raise the alarm about that because at some point it comes for everybody. That's kind of what I'm reading from your blog.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah. Well, when I say gone, you know, I'm, I'm have to admit using a little bit of hyperbole just because I feel like, you know, the theaters on has caught fire. I'm pointing to the fire and some people are like, I see the fire, but I really just, I need to sit here. I need the roof above my head. And, and I get it. You know, there, there's a, a small, array of responses that people are taking to what's happening. But I think, you know, if you look at what is happening to me, it's what engineers would call a liquid state. I think that's what they call it, a liquid state, a plastic state. Anyway, but the point being that things appear solid, but they're really not, right? There's like a precarious situation point a tipping point if you will where things that appear solid will suddenly turn liquid and I feel like that's where we are particularly in tech but it's not what's really interesting to me is it's not just tech it is everywhere I mean even the government right now right and for whatever reason I think it has to do with the fact that just the state of things the world the everything And the companies, we all went through this during COVID, radically and rapidly. And it caught everybody by surprise. It took a couple years for companies to recover, for everybody to try to get to something that used to resemble pre-pandemic. And now that they've learned from that, now that they see, hey, we may be sliding into uncertain times, I feel like that playbook combined with the promise and the possibility and the whatever you want to call it with AI, those two things are like the peanut butter and chocolate of our liquid state right now. That's why it's happening so fast is there's nothing that's not on the line, including employee loyalty. What does that even mean? Everybody's in some form of survival mode, shelter in place. And for companies, especially those that are public, sadly, they have a responsibility to pump up that shareholder value. One of the ways that you do that, you can't save your way to more money and you can't save your way to growth, but you can certainly cut and cut and cut and cut and cut and get your profitability up and So all this stuff is just happening at once, and it's happening so fast. I think that's the thing that's catching all of us off guard.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

One of the pieces you wrote today or yesterday was about someone you knew who applied to 800 jobs, right? I read about that in Fortune magazine. And kind of the insanity of that. At some point, why do you stop, right? Or keep going. Or

SPEAKER_01 9:30

win. Yeah. Why do you keep going? Yeah. That's an extreme case, that 800 applications. But it's very real. I don't doubt it. I have friends who have been applying and applying and applying, you know, scores of jobs each month. I don't know if they've quite hit the 100 mark, but they're just there on LinkedIn. They're on anything they can get online. They're using AI to tweak their resume, to tweak their cover letter. They're tweaking their LinkedIn. Every minute of the day is trying, trying, trying, trying, trying, trying, trying. I just look at it and say, dude, at some point, read the situation for what it is. And little tweaks to our resumes and our LinkedIn profiles. Like that's not we're beyond that now. That's it's just not going to cut it.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

So obviously you're using some hyperbole and the point stands that there are not the amount of jobs that there were before. And there's people who want to do those jobs that are not fully finding that. Let's say you have someone who has been through this trying to find roles, trying to get back in. And nothing's happening. What are some avenues you would suggest to them? Like, instead of just continuing to ram through that door, what are some other alternatives that you're seeing? Obviously, we're on the Fractional podcast here, so there's some thoughts there. But where does your mind go when you're trying to maybe help out a friend who's wrestling with this? I'm telling friends,

SPEAKER_01 11:05

especially those who, well, especially those who are trying to get their old job back, essentially. That's what the guy in the Fortune article was trying to do is get a version of his old job back. What I'm trying to do is to smack some sense into people and say, stop doing that. It's not that you can't get a job, hopefully, but you're not going to get your old job back. And so for some people, you ask like, what do you do? I think this is an incredibly interesting time to build something if you have the means. And what I mean by means is, Not the know-how, because weirdly enough, AI can give us all the know-how to do an incredible amount and type of things. More of, do you have the runway? Of course, anybody who has a family and they've got to provide insurance and food, roof over their head, that stuff. I think the fractional thing has always been interesting. just because I still believe that's the future. And if I look at people that are trying to get their old job, I'd say to them, fine, keep doing that, but you've got to find a different way to do your job, and full-time employment likely isn't going to be it. I had a studio owner of a very successful, large design studio reach out to me just yesterday looking for both full-time permanent and contract roles for some fintech design work. And I thought it was interesting that it wasn't one or the other. It was both. I have to follow up and find a little bit about that. But I see a future where if I read between the lines there, they're looking for good people. And if that means people that own a full-time job, cool. That means people that want to stay out and kind of be their own boss and do their own thing, that's cool too. But they're looking for those skills. So I think now is a really good time to create something. It's a really good time to rethink how you deliver your skills, whether that's fractional or contract. It's also a really good time to really dig deep and say, is this what I really want to be doing with my life? Because There are jobs out there. There's there's things we can do. It just I don't think it reflects what we did yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

One of the ways I kind of think about this is we might be and I'm I'm a little more hesitant still than you, but that's why you're on here to argue with me on this. I think we might be entering this area where a full time role as, say, a designer such as myself is like winning the lottery. You're incredibly grateful if you do. but you can't count on it, right? That's not what the future is showing and the present is showing. And I remember a couple of years ago, I joined a startup and they wanted me full time because they wanted to be able to say to their investors that they had secured these roles to raise the next round. However, things quickly went south. The company struggled and had problems. And had I fully attached to that, who knows where my journey would have gone. And so I've noticed like, When a company is looking for full-time, and actually, Lance, I would love any thoughts you have on this because I know this is something you deal with all the time. When they're looking for full-time, they usually have some thoughts in the back of their head about what that means in terms of owning someone's time, in terms of raising revenue, in terms of all these things. How has that shifted? I'll start with you, Lance, then I'd love to hear your thoughts, Greg.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, it's hard to say here, right? Like, there's a lot of different groups different industries different employers who take a different approach to things right but um i mean in general when i think about we need to add a full-time headcount means we have work that's not getting done um and the most obvious way to do that without risking misclassification is to add a full-time employee uh to take care of that project um So for someone, for a employer whose strategy is to only work with contractors, that's okay to a certain degree. You get into some hot water with the Department of Labor and Fair Labor Standards when you treat someone who's not an employee like an employee. So I will just insert that companies don't just go the employee route because they have an ulterior motive. I mean, a lot of times it's the legal way to get this job done. But as we move into more project-based work or portfolio-type work, where I have hung out for a while now, Joshua, it makes a lot of sense to work with somebody outside an employment relationship. So I don't know if I answered your question correctly, directly enough there, but giving some context and HR type light to the situation.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Yeah, I'm curious your thoughts, Greg, on maybe in 2025 in June, what are values that employers are seeing in going full-time versus other options?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Well, I mean, I think you see it reflected in the CEO of Shopify coming down and saying, we're not adding a single head to to any team, to any department, unless you can show, demonstrate, that you have exhausted all the possibilities through AI to get that work done. And I think it's a little easier for a company like Shopify to throw that out. I'm sure it was really popular with their, for their stock, but you're seeing other companies stand up and say the same thing, right, of before Solange mentioned, you know, this being an indication of work not getting done, I think you're spot on with that. But in this day and age, it's also an indication that maybe the team isn't working smart enough, right? And so if you see a job listing that's, you know, To be honest, I don't know what that means anymore because I know that companies put jobs out there just to see what they can get. And they're not fishing for what can we get in a couple weeks. They're like, let's just get a nice healthy pipeline built up so that if the day comes, we've got a bench. But I do, going back to what I was saying earlier, I think that the full-time work, if they do put out headcount, means that You know, hopefully the team has likely automated some things. But I also have seen that the jobs have also changed, right? So let's talk about design for a minute. A lot of the roles that I have seen and people that I've talked to that are applying to those roles haven't quite seen a change. leadership job that also doesn't come with the requirement of actually doing work, like delivering work, being in whatever it is, Figma or whatever app you're using or whatever the design team uses. But these are no longer just go to meetings, do one-on-ones, set the vision, mission, strategy, tactics. This is like do all of those things, but now you also have to design. So it's... Job, full-time work is a white hot mess. And even if you can get it, back to something you said earlier, Josh, I mean, you can get a job, I can get a job tomorrow. And that still doesn't mean I have a job 90 days from now. I don't know about you guys, but I had some friends who in the last two years went through the crazy six-month interview process. They got the offer letter, signed it, sent it back. And in the process of doing that, They decided not to fund the job after all, and they didn't get their job. They didn't start. That's what I mean by when everything's on fire, everything's in flux because nothing, you can't take anything for granted, like nothing for granted anyone.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, you're bringing something out here, Greg, that's important is that you say everything is on fire. And I think that means both sides of the aisle, right? Yes. Yeah. Like on the employee side, the world's on fire. And on the employer side, things are on fire there too, right? There is like access to capital is drastically limited compared to what it was a few years ago. Economically, it is difficult for businesses to see growth right now. And so like this rescinded offer letter scenario, right? Like I think it's easy to like villainize the big bad employer, right? Who can make that decision willy nilly. Like the reality is, is that they probably really do need that person and they are fighting for their financial life to keep the business afloat to live another day, right? So it's on fire on both sides. And going back to your article, it's like, How about we just opt out altogether?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Well, yes, I think that's a scenario. And again, I'm writing in that way right now because I feel like people need to see that, hey, this actually is a plausible future. I told a friend of mine about a month ago, I've known her for 20 plus years now, I was her employer 20 years ago, and we've kept in touch, and I've coached her here and there. Anyway, she was an executive at a pretty well-to-do marketing firm. She was let go because they decided, okay, we know how to fix this. Let's return to work. The company was headquartered in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania. She's in Southern California and said, nope. So, you know, she's out of a job. And I told her, I said, look, there is a real possibility here that that may have been your last full-time job. And I said that because I saw her then move right into applying for jobs that admittedly she didn't want. Like it just drained her just the idea of actually working at the places she was applying for. And She would take recruiter calls and just like a million energy vampires out there just sucking the will out of people. And I'm just looking at her saying, look, as your friend, what are you doing? What are you trying to get back to? What are you trying to hold on to? Because look at you, you're miserable even just trying to do this, applying, applying, applying. What part of once you, if you were to get a job, you know, give the employer, your bank, your routing information so they can direct deposit your money. Do you think that's going to, you know, really at the end of the day, is that going to make you happy? Is it like, what are we fighting for here?

SPEAKER_02 23:00

I'm, I'm thinking about a bunch of scenarios I've been in that are similar where I've had jobs that did not match at all what I wanted and I was miserable. There's another part of this though, that I'm curious. Um, You can have a company that is challenging, problematic and all the rest, but you'll still have people within that company that fight for protecting and let's say giving a designer a great job. My view for the last seven or eight years, and I know this is not unique at all, but I've finally adopted it, is I'm not working for a company. I'm working for whoever my manager is. And while that manager and I have a good connection, I hold on as tight as I can. And I think probably the scary thing for me is if suddenly these managers who actually care and are really trying their best start to lose their ability to hold on to the people they want to keep. I think that's, to me, the biggest concern going forward because my career has mostly been shaped around doing individual contributor work. And that's been a whole other conversation, but very intentional decision on my part. And I realized that That does put me on, might as well flip a coin and see if the manager turns out to be one that's helpful or not.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

I mean, well, what you just described is the lattice that has been keeping the lights on, but also crumbling for decades and decades and decades. I mean, we've all seen where A new VP will come in or a new executive comes in and whatever the team was working on, no longer relevant, no matter what they argue. And that leader brings in the people that they know, right? Like an entire lift and shift for no reason other than leaders are, it's really weird, but there's kind of an unwritten rule that when you're a leader of a certain level, You're there to break eggs. You're there to cook, which means you're likely going to be swapping people out, letting people go for no other reason other than you represent change. And the company was making a bet on, we just need some change. Not sure exactly what we need, but this person seems confident. They have a direction. Let's hire them and see what finds out or what happens. So, I mean, yeah, Josh, when you're in that position, that IC role, I mean, everything you said resonates, I believe is a hundred percent true of, of you're not working for the company, you're working for your team, uh, that, but you are reliant upon that manager's ability to keep you employed. And, um, you know, it, again, what can you do if there is something that gives you a little bit more agency, you know, ownership over your future than, um, just, um, hoping and praying for the best. And that's where anybody who's on the inside, and especially those people that are just trying to hang it, or sorry, hold it together. Lance, you mentioned that the headcount is disappearing for the reasons you mentioned. It's like nobody's having fun right now. I don't know very many people that are enjoying work Not to say that they aren't. I'm sure I'm missing an entire portion of the world's population. But in tech, I don't know anybody who's really happy.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

There's a tension between, use the word agency, autonomy, choice, and predictability and security. And I think that predictability and security... is becoming just more and more of an illusion. And for some, that agency and choice is terrifying. And for others, it's welcome. But I think, and I think this might be a point that you were making when you were writing is, I think the folks who are going to be, most successful in that in this first wave of of the future like whatever is coming here in the next year or two um are the ones who are saying um yeah i'm not afraid of the uh the agency right that the fate is more in my hands than in someone else's and you know taking proactive steps in that direction because i do think that the security uh is fading it's a it's a mirage

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Another friend of mine works at a very large public traded company. He was, prior to just days ago, he was a director over a global design team that was focused on the client side facing experience for one of their brands. Then he came to work the next day and found out that he'd been removed from that singular focus. And now he was in charge of design for the entire vertical, top to bottom. No additional designers, no additional resources, no change in his title, no additional money, just we've now anointed you with all this additional responsibility. It's a little bit different than being let go, but I would also counter, it's just as bad. But I want to go back to, I'm saying this and sharing this with you because that mirage, there's a couple different mirages out there. One is that I've got a job and I'm safe. The other is, I got a job and this is what my job is. My viewpoint on this is broad. It's in small small startups it's in small studios it's in large global corporations talking with product people design people content people engineers I mean it's from where I stand there's a lot that you know the mirages used to cover used to give us comfort and maybe even complacency and they're flickering if they're not gone it's just I don't know that people are seeing it the way I do they're not maybe seeing they don't have the perspectives that I do and I share that with you just to give you a sense of like I do feel like there's a sense of urgency and that's why that kind of open to work is the new tip of the sword not only is that meant to be like a wake up call but also a rallying cry of like listen you're silver lining here but look at it this way you're if you're out you're out which means if you if you can try fight for the ability to consider what comes next which i think for all of us means learning new things whether that's going to be ai whether that's going to be um farming you know i I'm not sure because I think there's going to be some people that look at this and say, I'm out. Peace out. I'm not going to be in my industry anymore, whether that's technology, oil and gas, whatever it might be. But now is the time to try to find a direction and start poking around, poke the fences, throw spaghetti at the wall, whatever you want to call it, prototype, but start doing those things. And I would say for those people that are still there, they're either afraid of that agency, they're not feeling entrepreneurial, they're afraid that they might be out for good, I'd say, you know, do what you can to take some baby steps. Just start looking. Because, you know, the people that... This is... We're in primordial soup land right now. And now is a really good time to, you know, just... Start tinkering as much as possible.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

I want to talk about another element that you've been writing about and I know is on all of our minds. AI. What are you seeing? Say someone still has a job, is still employed and is being tasked with using AI. Let's pick a designer, right? Because that's a field that I know that you know. What is your recommendation for how AI can even be approached right now, maybe as a designer, product manager, content writer, as being able to do that job? I'm going to just throw you the baton because I know you have a ton of thoughts on this, then I'll have follow-up questions.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

So I see, you know, obviously the internet is flooded, inundated with magic prompts and These seemingly magical devices that are going to give us the best output possible. I see people that are trying to now, it seems, seeing more and more folks look at automation. Look for the mundane things, the repetitive things, and see what tools could be used to let AI do that for you. I see a lot of folks that are using AI, I guess what I'd call it as... I'm going to say crutch, and I don't know if that's the right word, and I honestly don't know if that's a fair word. I don't mean anything negative by it, but more of people looking to use AI for the sake of using AI. I guess that's probably the better way to say it. I don't see that as the most useful way to see, to use AI. That stems from when I first started to use it, and I shunned it for a long time, I wasn't really interested in AI helping me become creative. I saw, you know, being a designer and having that background, I saw too many people that were just, hey, look what I can do. I see some smart people doing some cool things, like Stephen Gates is doing some really interesting things. But for the most part, it just seemed like a lot of, hey, this is kind of nifty. I can finally design, you know, quote, design, draw, paint, whatever, something I could never do on my own. And that was cool. And I still see a lot of folks that are doing that, but in the form of, you know, write a blog post for me or turn this bullet point list into an eloquent business email message, like whatever the crap we see on television. When I started using AI and started to realize that there's a whole side of it that has nothing to do with like generate this for me. You know, if you think it largely represents like name it, our humanities, our sciences, our technology, the ability to describe a thought or to share a theory and to ask, you know, what am I thinking about? What am I talking about? And have it come back and relate what it is that's in your head to actual science or actual, you know, thinking frameworks and systems. to me is insanely powerful. I see AI, frankly, as being the best tool to help you get an idea of where you are, whether that's on a project, in your industry, in your practice, in the world. Just to map where you are now and to figure out what it is that you should or could learn to advance. The best way to do that is to share a thought, share an idea, maybe a perspective with that, and then to ask, what am I missing? What is it that I don't know that I don't know that I don't know? And when you start to ask those questions in conjunction or in relation to the thinking that you're doing, that opens up an enormous wealth of information and learning. I feel like I've learned so much in the last six months, less about AI and more about psychology and behavioral science and sometimes history, sometimes even just how different facets of business work at a scale or at a level that I've just never been a part of. And that to me is where I see people that are like I was, kind of shunning AI or they're fearful of it for one reason or the other. And what I had been trying to argue or start to argue is, listen, this is here. It's not going to go away. There might be a bubble, just as there was an internet bubble, but this is not going to disappear. And just like the internet, this is a really good time to start to dabble, start to not just play, but to figure out how this works and how to explore this space in a way that's not necessarily generative, but more maybe academic. And I don't take that word to be too literal, just more of a pursuit, right? Like a thing that can take a spark of curiosity and ignite it into a Saturn V rocket.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

I had recently an example of I'm working on a hard design problem, trying to solve a feature. And you might have a radio button that expands into a dropdown that then opens up an accordion. These are all horrible examples, but just trying to paint the picture. And I was working with ChatGPT to try and figure out a solution because typically as a designer, what you'll do is Go look at a bunch of other examples, maybe open Mobin, maybe download a bunch of apps. And you're trying to see, has an app, it doesn't matter the industry, but have they solved this kind of challenge in a way that's useful to draw from? And I wasn't finding it. And so I threw in basically the problem to ChatGPT and what it gave me back was a really bad answer, but it made me immediately realize, oh, wait, hold on. Let me put on my product manager hat and actually define the problem. So I then defined the problem. I wrote out the product manager wording, like the acceptance criteria of what I needed. Then it gave me back a solution that was wrong, but really interesting. And I then took that. I started to work with it. I started to mold it. I shifted it. And it basically unblocked me and I kept running forward. And I, you know, as a designer does, pivoted another three or four times. Until finally landing on a solution that is working really well, although not tested yet. So who knows? And what I saw in that moment was, and this is something Ben Thompson of Stratechery has been talking about, AI usage only goes one direction. Once you realize its value, you keep doing more of it. So it took me three or four months to finally find a really beneficial use case for product design. But you better believe I'm going to keep trying it more because If I can increase the hit rate of the value that I'm getting out of it, that's absolutely worth the $20 a month that I'm spending.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah, and I want to point out a key thing you've said here. Because you got an insight from trying to automate, in this case, code, right? But the insight wasn't necessarily the code that it gave you. In fact, what's interesting to me is that was actually a failure. But the insight, and this is what I'm writing a book on, this is what I believe, is it opened a door for you. It gave you a new perspective of, oh, now I get it, or whatever. Now I understand. Now I have information. And if you think back to, you know, in different kind of formative years, these different life stages, And, you know, what we learn in our 20s and our 30s, and you guys aren't there yet, but, you know, when you get to your 40s and your 50s and you look back and I think it's sometimes fun, but it also can be annoying of, you know, what would you go back and tell your 20-year-old self? And I look at AI as like, well, you don't need to wait till you're 50 or you don't need to wait till whatever. You just start asking some questions. And especially like, Josh, what you just did is, okay, I'm asking it in this way. What if I come at it sideways? You know, flank it or put a different hat on myself. We talk about giving AI the hats, you know, the prompts. Think of this, help me create something with all of these blinders and constraints and hats and whatever on. And what that does is that just gives you, to me, like predictable outcomes, right? When that We're not asking it to, we're asking it to kind of in some sense do our thinking for us and what we're merely doing is we're kind of guiding how it gives us that information as opposed to why don't just talk to it. Let me be the one that you're to some degree helping prompt so that I can learn something, gain a different perspective, gain additional wisdom My character has gone up, charisma 17, now 18. And now I'm learning. And that's the thing that we've, there's no way out of where we are right now, if you're in or out, if you're full-time or fractional, there's no way moving forward in this world anymore unless you're going to learn and constantly learn. And AI is an incredible tool. helpful tool and collaborator for doing just that.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Something that is similar, about five or six years ago, I decided I was going to write fiction. And so I wrote a bunch of fiction books, ended up self-publishing three of them. And something I learned from that is, I'm going to misquote it, but some famous author says, you need to write a million words until you actually have a feel for your voice. And it's based on all that writing, I'm close. I've gotten close to that point. And I've started to just find my voice, just get to the point where if I sit down and write for a half hour, maybe five to 10% of the time, I'm super excited about what came out. That's years of effort. What's interesting now is I'm starting to look back and say, what if now, and this is what I'm really curious about people, maybe who haven't done this yet, haven't put in the multiple years of writing. But what if now I were to go write fiction and basically take each chapter and say, hey, how do I increase the tension here? Hey, what are the 20 bullet point things I should be thinking about to make this story continue? Not because I want AI to write any of it, but I want a partner to help me edit and modify and improve. And there's a question here. I'm now at the stage where I think I would be really happy to do that because I've found the start of my voice. Would you recommend someone... put in those multiple years of effort on their own? Or is there a way to say, hey, AI, help me from the beginning, but I don't want it to be lifeless. I don't want it to be dead. I don't want to read a bunch of AI crap. Where do you kind of take that? And I'm using the fictional writing as a simple example, but you can take this into any field right now.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

I don't think that there's... Look, there's certainly shortcuts with AI to... If you were to start from scratch and say... you know, help me be a writer and, and let's collaborate on, you know, help me write a book, fictional book. But I do feel like that's, you know, for the sake of conversation, let's just say that that was your, the work you were doing. Incredibly surface level, right? And you might put out a decent story, but what you're, you're short cutting, and this is where I feel like this is the, kind of gets into that generative parlor trick kind of use of AI is you're not understanding the thinking, the frameworks, the systems, the structure that goes into storytelling, right? And I don't know, even if AI could come up with some type of master artwork or master art that includes writing, It's still, it's not going to have heart, it's not going to have soul, but it also doesn't have, in this case, it wouldn't have you, right? It wouldn't have what makes Josh, Josh, what is interesting to you, you know, all the things about you when it goes into writing, even though you may be writing fiction. There's still all the things that make Josh that's going to go into that writing. And I feel like if you just were to sit down and say, Let's bang out words. It will do that, but it's not... How to put this? You're going to be on thin ice, right? Now go to do that for a second time and a third time. This is why I look at it as a collaboration tool, a learning tool, because we have to build up knowledge to go along with that. I don't think it's necessarily to validate that to any person or certify this or certify that. It's just if you don't have the foundational learning to draw from, it's going to show up in the results one way or the other. Whether that's the work itself or the interactions people have with you and your work, there's going to be a hole there that I don't think could be ever filled by just starting from scratch with AI.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

One of my favorite moments has been, I'll go reread something that I wrote and my brain will start to say, wait a minute, you need to have the character do this. And then the character does that. And you have that moment of joy where you realize yourself has been embedded into the work. And I want that element of humanity to remain within creative work. And as we're wrapping up here, if someone's listened to all of this, and they're resonating or maybe they're really upset and angry and don't agree at all um what first of all how can people find out about you learn more about you and then second what's the continuation of the path you would offer to someone who wants to keep learning about all this stuff like where do they go next well

SPEAKER_01 47:07

you can find me at brilliantcrank.com that's where i'm doing most of my writing right now especially on this topic um So I have a playbook that I've written, and it's likely going to turn into a course on how to use AI in a very different way that basically helps augment your ability to think. In a lot of ways, it increases your humanity by what it is that you're learning, but also enables you to You don't get lost in the AI. So I'm writing about this now. I'm going to be writing more directly about this in the future. And I'm working on a book form of the playbook that I'm in the final stages of editing now. So I think that's one way. I'm trying to think. There's a couple different authors that... And of course, they escaped me. I'll get those to you guys and you can put them in the show notes. But there's a couple of authors that are looking at this. I wanted to say there's one book out there called Co-Intelligence. And they're talking about a future where we don't use this to replace humans. We don't use this simply as like an output machine, but we use it to enhance our abilities. Think of like a bionic machine. appendage I think people are calling them cyborgs now you know like this it's not just me it's like me with AI without the Google glasses thank God but yeah I'll be writing about that and you can also follow me on LinkedIn you know if subscribing to brilliantcrank.com doesn't float your boat you can always follow me on LinkedIn

SPEAKER_02 49:04

thank you Greg for coming on and chatting more and I There's something I've been writing about as well is this existential dread I feel, but also the creativity and opportunity. And at least these are interesting times and hopefully they're enough for us to be able to put food on our tables.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Thanks for joining us again, Greg. If you want to reach out and contact Joshua or I, you can always do that at email at fractional.fm. And we love your feedback and we will Talk to you all next time.