SPEAKER_00: 0:00

All right. Hello and welcome to the Fractional Podcast. I am your host today, Lance Robbins. My co-host Joshua Wold is out, but I'm excited to not be alone. I'm here with Mary Alice Duff, who is a Fractional COO and the CEO of her own life, apparently, as we were just discussing pre-recording. Yeah. Mary, tell us who you are. who you work with, what kind of projects, what kind of companies are really the sweet spot for you where you're at right now?

SPEAKER_01: 0:32

Yeah, so sweet spot for me, I tend to attract and work with small businesses. So and I'm very intentional about the difference between a small business and a startup. So I'm not working with venture backed companies. I'm working with companies that are generating real revenue. I'm not throwing shade, but real revenue. And they are only spending the money they have earned. And I think that's a really important distinction for folks in this space. You know, I'm not working with companies that are looking for this uniform status, this hockey stick growth. These are what we'll call lifestyle businesses, which, oddly enough, sometimes comes off as pejorative. And I don't mean it to that way at all. In fact, I'm running a lifestyle business. I help founders run lifestyle businesses like I want to help people live their lives. Right. And so. As far as the types of businesses, so there's small businesses, usually between one and three million, up to five million in operating revenue each year. These are small teams, and they're globally remote. So we have no physical office. The people I work with have no physical office. And so it's really knowing how to work in that remote space, how to keep people engaged, how to keep people excited, and then really understanding like how real businesses that depend on real revenue operate you know you can't dump 100k into a marketing initiative you've got to be scrappy and creative and um yeah but those are basically the types of businesses i work with

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

cool okay so i immediately have questions so lifestyle business like i think for me and a lot of people listening probably right now there's a number of different ideas that come to mind. But what does that really mean? Like, is this a product that's physical? Sounds like it's probably not based on the remote nature of it. Is this an influencer? Like, what does it mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:30

All a lifestyle business means, and it's funny that this word has gotten so watered down in our culture, it's building a business that supports the lifestyle you desire. So let's say what you desire is to work 20 hours a week, no more. And you don't want drama. And you want to be able to be home when your kids get home from school. And you want to drop everything and take a vacation when you want. It's saying it's kind of like flipping off hustle culture and being like, that's not for me. Like, I'm not grinding. You know, it's using business as a tool to live the lifestyle you desire. So that could be a product-based business. Granted, it is harder. Margins are very, very different in product-based businesses. But for the most part, it is a lot of service-based businesses. I've worked with people who are doing things around travel, around retreats. I've worked with technology companies, hospitality companies, ed tech type companies. It's setting up the business in such a way that the business doesn't run your life. The business adds to your life. And I mean, What's the point of starting a company if you don't even get to enjoy your life? I'm not here for that. So I love it when I need a founder. And this is why I'm a fractional COO. I love it when I need a founder who's just so ready to hand the reins over to somebody else so that they can actually enjoy their time. So that's what a lifestyle business is. It could be an influencer, sure, but that's definitely not what I mean. I mean, building a business that supports the life that you desire.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

Okay, that's really helpful to understand. So then my follow up question is, that sounds like a really interesting niche that you found. Okay, before I ask this question, how long have you been doing fractional or entrepreneurial, like solo type work like this?

SPEAKER_01: 4:27

Yeah, so I've been on this full time for four years. Prior to that, I had my own company. I was trying to build a lifestyle business, but anybody who's ever worked in clothing, that is not really possible with the margins there. And then prior to that, I worked in the nonprofit sector. So, but to be fair, I have been freelancing, consulting, side hustling, side gigging my entire career. So I started out as a grant writer. And if you know anything about grant writing, doesn't really pay much. So I did grant writings on the side for other people. And it wasn't until I realized four years ago, I was like, wait a minute, the work that I've been doing my entire career that comes really easy to me. Maybe that's the work that I should make full time. So four years full time officially, but more like 15 if I count all my side hustles.

SPEAKER_00: 5:16

Yeah. Okay. So with that in mind, then, did you immediately know that this was a narrow lane that you wanted to play in? Or did it take you a little bit of trial and error to figure out what your niche is? And what would you say to someone who's early in their fractional launch experience about finding a narrow subset of customers that you're going to really work closely with versus casting such a wide net? Because I know there's different times in the life stage of someone's business that it's... much more attractive to take in a different approach. So how'd that play out for you?

SPEAKER_01: 5:59

Yeah, so I don't think I set out to be a fractional COO for these small purpose-driven teams, founders really trying to build a lifestyle business, founders trying not to be chained to their businesses all the time. It was what I desired for my own business, but I couldn't make it happen with what I had. And so when I set out, I started meeting clients and establishing clients. And even though they didn't call themselves lifestyle businesses, essentially that's what they were. And it was when I started researching the whole startup ecosystem and kind of understanding how capital works and how these companies grow and having dealt with some of that while running my own clothing business, I really quickly realized that's just not for me. And I'll say it's because I like the cornerstone of my work is people. Like I truly believe that exceptional teams make shit happen. And you could have the best product, the best tech, you could have the most ingenious ideas. But if your team can't work together, if your team doesn't want to work with you, if you're the kind of visionary, if you can't communicate properly, and you're constantly pivoting, you're just not going to get shit done. And you're going to burn out your teams, and they're not going to last, right. And so And I don't mean to, you know, paint a broad stroke, but it's kind of common knowledge that people aren't always treated the best in startups. You know, move fast and break shit, right? And that includes the people. And that's just not for me. I am like just absolutely obsessed with making sure the people on our teams are being treated properly. They're being treated fairly. They're being supported. They're not working around the clock. They have plenty of downtime. I'm doing everything I can to prevent burnout. Um, and that is really, really, that's a difficult sell in the startup world. If I came to the table with that pitch, right. Um, so, and that's not how I work. Like you're not going to catch me working 12 hour days. Like it's not happening. I live in the South of France. Okay. I'm out to the beach in the afternoons. So, um, I'm just not a good fit for these fast scaling startups. I'm a great fit for founders who want to build businesses that are prepped up by their ability to generate revenue every single day, who are conscientious about how they're spending, who want to build companies that support the life they desire with incredible teams. So I'm not a good fit for a startup. So that's how I figured out my niche. I didn't set out to do it intentionally. It was a lot of experimenting, a lot of talking to different people and kind of realizing like, oh, you're not my people. You're not for me. I'm not for you. I'm not going to push this. And realizing that, oh, this group over here, hell yeah, they're my people. That's a hell yes, right? So for people just starting out, you don't know what you don't know. You just got to start at the start, right? And you got to get out there and you're going to have some contracts that you love and remember what you love about those clients and those contracts. And then you're going to have those projects where you are just absolutely miserable. Remember what about it made you miserable? And then you don't do it again, right? So a lot of it is just experimentation. You're not going to know what you like until you get out there and try it, right?

SPEAKER_00: 9:19

Yeah, good. So kind of boiling this down a little bit then, it's okay to try a lot of different things. And early on, that's probably the right approach. But the quicker you can realize who your people are and where you fit, the quicker you'll find... you'll probably find resonance with that audience and, and, and a happier set of clients for yourself to work with. And when you, when you lose some of those clients that weren't good to start with anyway, did you have that experience where, you know, somebody was like, all right, we're not going to work together anymore. And you were like, on the one hand, maybe this is your experience, right? Agonizing over it. But on the other hand, realizing what a relief.

SPEAKER_01: 10:10

So I've had the experience where I had a client. And when it started, it was definitely like we are building, this is a small business, not a startup, we are not interested in raising funds, we are not interested in any type of venture equity type capital. We were very conscientious about like, okay, every thing we put out there. We need to make money on this so that we can support our operations, blah, blah, blah. And that was very much like what we were building. It was, honest to God, it's one of the most favorite products I've ever had the privilege of building in my career. And then they decided that they actually did want to sell this thing to the point where they would need some very significant capital. And it looked like for the coming 12 months, that was all we were going to be doing was raising money. And that no longer felt like a fit. So that was an instance where I said, I can get you ready for that raise. I'll do your pitch deck. I'll get you your list of investors. I'll get you all your talking points, your three-year financial forecast. But then I'm going to let you go do it and I'm going to step away. And that was tough because I genuinely love that product. It was just such a cool product. It was a cooking product and I love to cook. But I knew for me, this isn't the path. This is not what I want. I do not want to be on a rocket ship to the moon. Like, This just wasn't what I wanted. Um, so yeah, I had to say goodbye to that client. That kind of sucked, but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00: 11:34

Yeah. Yeah. And, and that means there's room for you to work with a customer that's going to really fit. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 11:41

But that can be super scary when you're, I mean, even at not just early on at any point, right. Letting go of a significant piece of your revenue and saying, I have to trust that I'm going to get something better. Um, but not knowing where that's coming from.

SPEAKER_01: 11:58

Absolutely, 100%. And this is the one thing that I learned through all that is I took my foot off the gas when it comes to developing my pipeline while I had that client, probably because I was so enamored with the product and I was having so much fun. And then when I felt that like visceral reaction, like I gotta, this isn't for me anymore. Then just like you said, I was like, shit, what's my next client coming from? And so I have learned that lesson. And so now, even though I have a full client, I'm going to say caseload, but I have a full slate of clients right now. I'm not taking my foot off the gas as far as pipeline goes. Like I'm still regularly posting to LinkedIn. I'm still reaching out to people, even though I'm not actively looking for new clients to add to my work. I learned my lesson the hard way.

SPEAKER_00: 12:46

Yeah, no, that's such a great point. I think we've talked about that in the past year, but how important it is. to keep pipeline development going. You mentioned LinkedIn posting, outreach. Could you give like, here's four or five things that I do regularly?

SPEAKER_01: 13:01

Yeah, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. I only use one platform. I don't use any other social media. I don't even use it for personal reasons. Instagram, I've never signed up for TikTok. I don't even know how it works. I don't use Facebook, none of it. Yeah, it was hurting my brain. But I've been consistently using LinkedIn for, I don't know, the past eight months now. Every single nickel of my income is tied back to a connection I made on LinkedIn. Some random person seeing a post and then introducing me to somebody else, every single nickel. So how I use the platform. So I'm putting out three, four, five different posts a week. You know, I have, I definitely have a certain personality on LinkedIn. I try to keep it a little spicy. Again, because I don't want clients to be surprised when they work with me. Like I'm very direct and I'm not going to sugarcoat shit. So if you don't like that, don't hire me because we won't be a good fit. I think the most important thing on LinkedIn is commenting. So you see interesting content, leave meaningful comments. Don't just shoot into people's DMs and ask to work with them. You want to build that relationship over time. sending connection requests, being open to networking chats. So I'm generally pretty open. If somebody is connected with me, DMs me, like I'll share my calendar and we'll chat for 20 minutes. I'm generally cool with that. But honest to God, 100% of my leads come from LinkedIn. And it is just being on the platform for about 30 minutes a day, five days a week. And just interacting with people.

SPEAKER_00: 14:40

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think I think there's this perception of if I post, then my DM box will start to get inquiries about my business. And for me, I can trace a lot of my revenue back to LinkedIn as well, but it never worked that way. No, it never worked that way. It's a long game. It's about building relationships and trust. And then somebody hears of somebody who needs something that you can solve. And there's this roundabout introduction process that it's never like I posted some really great thought leadership piece and now my inbox is full of leads. Like it just doesn't work. No,

SPEAKER_01: 15:20

I literally have never had that happen to me. That's not a thing. In fact, I have a client now who we found each other. She had posted on a post about generalist through generalist world who I love, love, love, love their content. Millie's fantastic. And my client had written a comment saying like, do you have a directory of like generalist type people? And I responded to her comment like, hey, I might be that person you're looking for. Let's chat. We moved to DMs. We moved to emails. Didn't hear from her for like three months. Then I post on LinkedIn like I usually do. It was a really great post. I had a cute little picture. I was in Valencia drinking this wonderful thing called Agua de Valencia. And She commented on it like, I love this post. And then, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I owe you a response to that email. And now she's my client. So my point of all that is it's not that the opportunity and you are in the same place at the right time. No, it's about visibility so that you stay top of mind so that when that person is ready, you are the person they think of. It's not you land in their inbox at the exact right moment. That's not how it works. It's staying visible. That's all it comes down to. So however you want to do that visibility, for me, it's LinkedIn. But for other people, it could be being on every podcast under the sun, like we're doing right now, it could be a YouTube channel, it could be Instagram, it could be a sub stack, whatever it is, figure out how you can get visible and stay visible regularly. And that is how your leads come in. And it's not going to be people flooding your inbox. It's super random. It's a guy I dated 20 years ago, responding to a post referred me to some other guy. And then he hired me two days later. I was like, what in the world? It's always the most random shit. That is a good, that's a true

SPEAKER_02: 17:20

story.

SPEAKER_01: 17:20

That is a true story. Guy

SPEAKER_02: 17:22

dated

SPEAKER_01: 17:23

in college. He like, I posted something about looking for new clients. He happens to work in the same industry, but like I said, we dated in college 20 years ago. He sent me a DM. I have somebody I want to introduce you to. I was like, what? It's bizarre, but only does that happen if you stay visible. If nobody knows that you have this thing and you're not the people that others are thinking of, it doesn't matter how good you are. It's just not going to happen. Okay,

SPEAKER_00: 17:53

this brings something else to mind for me. You just said, if nobody knows. You say you're a pretty direct person, so maybe this was never hard for you. But asking for something. I am looking for this. I have this to offer. Putting yourself out there with an ask. Because I talk to people who are early and they're just so afraid to be a nuisance or to ask for things. And I'm like, then they have no idea that you have a really great solution to the pain that they feel right now. You're almost stealing from them if you don't ask.

SPEAKER_01: 18:33

Yeah. So a couple of things. For one, like if you're in that position where you're kind of just starting out, right? Or maybe your leads have dried up and you really need to get something cooking. I love to do the LinkedIn post. It's a one pager. So it's a comment. I mean, it's a caption, but it's also a one pager that says, here's the work I do. Here's who I do it for. Here's the type of projects I'm interested in. Here's how to get in touch with me. And you make the ask. Hey folks, I am actively accepting new clients. I would love if you could help me out. This is exactly what I'm looking for. Be specific and make the ask. You would be shocked when you give people a very specific thing that they can do for you, they do it. But if you leave it kind of open-ended and just like, oh, just like share this to your Facebook. No, be specific. I'll also add that like this being a nuisance, like it's a little bit of the halo effect happening, right? Like we have this... Or the spotlight effect, rather. We think that people are paying attention to us more than they actually are. Right. So we're like, oh, God, if I write that post, you know, everybody and their mother is going to see it. And if there's a typo and or people don't agree with me and then I'm never going to get. No. Number one, nobody reads shit. OK. And if they do read it, they don't remember it. They have the attention span of a goldfish. I joke all the time. I do so much marketing work with my small business clients. Like we're just gonna keep repeating ourselves because nobody remembers anything. So I would say for those people who are worried about being a nuisance, one, nobody's gonna remember what you said, okay? So don't worry about being a nuisance, be annoying. And two, kind of like what you said, you're depriving people of a solution that they could possibly need. You know, as long as you're offering an honest to goodness product service, you're not trying to scam anybody, like absolutely put yourself out there. And then three, get over yourself. You just got to do it. Okay. You know, for me, I'm an American living in a foreign country. I have a kid I'm raising, a partner, I've got rent to pay, I've got, I don't have the luxury of just being like, I don't wanna, you know, like, I've got to do it, right? I have to take care of myself. And so even on those days, when you just don't feel like it, you just kind of got to push past. And then I'll just add, It's the more you do it, the easier it gets. It's like a muscle. If you just keep working it out, you just keep putting yourself out there. You realize every single time you do it, you're like, oh, that wasn't as scary as I thought. That was easier this time. So you just got to do it. Action, I think, is the cure for all of that. Just take action, however imperfect it might be. Just take action.

SPEAKER_00: 21:24

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like the muscle concept. You also said you also said something that that triggered a thought for me, too, was about being specific. Right. Because sometimes we have these like vague implied asks or like,

SPEAKER_02: 21:39

yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 21:40

if this is interesting, you know, let me know or something. Right. Like I've started making a practice and I've been advising people that I work with on this, too, is never never have an ask that has an if. Force a yes or no answer. Is this interesting to you? Is there someone you know that you could introduce me to? A direct question because the if gives people a way to not respond. Like, oh, well, let me think about that. And you never hear from them, right? Like to push for a yes or no. And I picked that up from... Never Split the Difference, the book on negotiating, right? So I think it's, I'm not going to remember the author's name correctly. Chris Voss, I think. Anyway, interesting book. Yeah, I hear that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:39

Yeah, yeah. And the specificity for me is key, especially when you think about, when we think about fractional roles, like a chief operating officer in one company, can be radically different from a COO in another company, right? A CMO in one role is completely different from a CMO in another. So like if you're a CMO, tell me like what type of stuff are we talking? Are we talking like top of the funnel? Are we talking like email campaigns? Are we talking social media? Like give me some specificity so I can actually zero in on who can actually, who's the right fit for you so that whatever connections I make are meaningful, right? And so for me, it's like those small businesses, those purpose-driven teams, between that one and three million mark, like that's where I really shine. And so when I can be specific like that, then people are like, oh, yes, yes, I know who to introduce you to. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 23:32

interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 23:32

But if you keep it too broad, it's just, it's too easy for people to opt out and be like, oh, this is overwhelming to think about. I can't help you right now.

SPEAKER_00: 23:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd have to think about it. Then they're gone and they forgot. Then they're gone because people

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

don't remember anything. That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 23:46

That's right. You've mentioned this a couple of times now. So you're in France. That's right. You have a very American accent.

SPEAKER_01: 23:59

Can you tell?

SPEAKER_00: 24:00

Right. So we're guessing that you're not a native French citizen. No, no. So tell us about this. How are you? How are you where you are and what inspired that and what's working for you? What's not? We'd love to hear this part of your story.

SPEAKER_01: 24:18

Sure. So it was during COVID. I guess it was 2020 and maybe it was in the summer. I think. Yeah, it must have been summer. Both my husband and I were working completely remotely. I was running my own business at the time. It was a clothing company. And my husband was teaching. You know, he got switched to teaching online. We're sitting in our beds and we're both from Philadelphia. Our grandparents are from Philly. Our ancestors are from Philly. Like literally my ancestors immigrated from Ireland, plopped down Philadelphia and never left. Okay. So I turned to him and I said, why do we live here? And he was like, uh, I don't know. It's like, this is where, you know, we've always been from. And I said, if we could live anywhere in the world, right. Cause it's COVID and we're just like fantasizing, where would we live? And he kind of giggled and I laughed and we both said the south of France. Now, mind you, neither of us have ever been to France. We spoke no French. The only thing we had in context was we met in a French restaurant. So he was a chef and I was a waitress. And so we just liked French food. That was it. And so I was like, well, this is cute. And I just started like messing around on real estate websites and kind of, you know, this is during COVID and everybody's depressed. And I'm just fantasizing about French chateaus. And then I was like, okay, but seriously, like, can we move somewhere? Like, can we move to a foreign country? And then I went down the Google rabbit hole as one does. And I found a visa for self-employed people in France. And I was like, this is a possibility. So we fixed up our house. We fixed that house up so fast. It was a really old house in Philadelphia. It needed a lot of work, but we put a lot of elbow grease in. We fixed up our house, sold it, sold everything inside of it, minus like six suitcases, packed up my kid, a dog, a cat, and booked a one-way ticket to France. And the first day I set foot in this country was my first day here. There was no research visit, none of that. And we've been here ever since. That was four years ago. So yeah, I love it here. I can't ever see myself living in the United States again. And being a self-employed person, it's really difficult to pull that off in the US because of the way healthcare is tied to your job. And we don't have that here. We have universal healthcare. So I get access to the same healthcare as everybody else. Pension, all that good stuff. So for me, it's, just so logical. The social system, the social support we have here and pairing that with self-employment and knowing that, you know, I'm not going to go medically bankrupt and I'll be able to afford my rent and the cost of living is lower and all that. And just the pace of life is a lot slower. So, yeah, I love it here. I speak French now, but I didn't when I arrived. I could say bonjour, but that was pretty much it. And yeah, highly recommend. Are

SPEAKER_00: 27:25

any of your customers local French businesses that you operate in French?

SPEAKER_01: 27:33

Yeah, so I had I had a client who had an American company with a French subsidiary and we had French teammates. And so I would speak their English was pretty shaky. So I would speak with them in French. But it was kind of like a mix. The team was mixed in that we had some people who only spoke English. some people who only spoke French, and then we had a group of us who could speak both. And so I've had those experiences. Now I have a client who is a UK company and a French company with a subsidiary in Spain. And so our team is trilingual. We are speaking French, Spanish, and English. And so, yeah, with Slack, because I work globally remotely, because it's so async, most of the conversations are being had over Slack. which is a lot, I can read and write quite well in French, so it's a lot easier. And of course you can install the, there's a translate widget in Slack, which makes it really cool if you have a multilingual team. But yeah, I've had employees that I've had to give some critical feedback to in foreign languages. So it's certainly a challenge, but it's interesting, right? Like my brain's not bored. picking up a new language is absolutely challenging and it's humbling, really knocks you down a peg. But it keeps things interesting, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 28:55

I've always had admiration for people who can operate professionally in a language that's not their native language. Yeah, it's

SPEAKER_01: 29:04

definitely not easy.

SPEAKER_00: 29:05

It's not easy. I think it's unfortunate that there's often a stigma against someone because they have an accent or maybe their English is difficult to understand for pronunciations or whatever. And I'm thinking, Amazing for this person to be coming in in a language that is not easy for them and still discussing difficult and complex issues and problems. It's impressive to me. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

it's incredibly impressive. And I'm not by any means fluent in French, but it it really is incredible. And now I'm actually working with a team in Croatia. And so. While our common language is English, it's interesting going back and looking at old messages. And I can't even read the letters. They don't even look familiar to me. The alphabet's different. And what's really interesting is the cultural differences. It's not even the language, right? Because I can bust out Google Translate and we can figure it out. It's these cultural differences. Like, I'm American. I get excited about shit. I'm like, yeah, this is great. And like, oh, why isn't the team excited? Do they not like me? She didn't put an exclamation point in her Slack message. Did I say something to offend her? But no, she's just not like rah-rah American like I am. So the cultural difference, I think, is actually the harder thing to navigate than the language. The language you figure out. Google Translate or whatever, but it's the cultural differences that it takes. That's a learning curve. And because I work with global teams, My people can be from all over the world, the people I'm working with. But you get there.

SPEAKER_00: 30:42

Yeah, that is so interesting. I don't know if I've told this story in this podcast. Speaking of cultural differences, I was selling a piece of consulting work. Been talking to this customer for a pretty large communications company based in India. And, you know, me and my colleague, like we're... on this zoom call right and i'm i'm pitching our this proposal and um the woman on the other end was looking very serious and and you can't if you're listening you don't see this but uh shaking her head back and forth um the whole time i was pitching and i was getting really discouraged i'm like this person is is not like i'm not getting through um And she continues to shake her head back and forth. And when I got done, she says, that's great. Send us a contract. And after I got off the call, I said to my colleague, I was like, I'm so confused. I thought for sure she was going to say no. And he burst out laughing at me. He says, you've never worked with someone in India before, have you? And I said, I guess I've never, like, not in this direct capacity. And he laughed. He said, The head, the head wobble is yes in their culture. Right. And so the whole time she's agreeing with me emphatically and yeah, I'm pouring it on more and more and she's trying to say, I get it. You can shut up and send me the contract. Right. But I thought she was going to say no. And I was discouraged anyway.

SPEAKER_01: 32:23

Oh my gosh. It's so true. There's the cultural differences. Like it's just, you don't, get it until you're in it. And then you're like,

SPEAKER_02: 32:33

Oh,

SPEAKER_01: 32:33

okay. But that's, could be the funnest part of the job. In fact.

SPEAKER_00: 32:39

Um, so something else we were discussing before we started recording alluded to this earlier was, um, I was asking you like, okay, well, how do we introduce you? Right. Cause some people are building a business. They want to move their fractional thing into like a boutique agency. So they want to be the CEO of such and such brand. Um, Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:21

Yeah, so it's probably because I'm so, I don't think jaded is the right word. I've been through it, let's just say. You know, I ran a clothing company for five and a half years. I had a team. I had a small little factory in Philadelphia. You know, we were shipping product to people around the world. It was very much like, you know, girl boss, right? I drank the girl boss Kool-Aid. I was like, hustle harder and grind. Yeah, I'm the CEO. Like what? No, girl, like, and I really had this really toxic relationship, I think, with like the founder energy and the hustle. And if I just work harder, if I just put in more hours and then there's your ego kind of gets all tied up in it, like building this big thing and being famous and people are going to know who I am. And when I came down from all that, you know, the business failed spectacularly and not in a cool way. It wasn't like a blaze of glory. It just kind of like slowly unraveled what laying people off one by one until it was just me. And then when I decided to pivot into fractional work full time. I decided then and there that like, I am no longer chasing someone else's version of success. Like for me, success is that I am living the life of my dreams. And that means I'm working 25 hours a week, but no more. As soon as my kid walks in from the school at the end of the day, I close my laptop and I give her a hundred percent of my attention. If I want to take my bike and ride down to the beach in the middle of the day with a book and a bottle of Rose, I'll do that because I can. Right. And for me, I don't need anything more than that. I don't need any of that in my life. I don't need the attention and the praise and the big team around me and the big fancy paycheck. Like I tried that. I gave up so much for my life to try and build that thing. I spent very little time with my husband. I missed years of my kid growing up for what? Right. So for me, My whole relationship to like the founder, CEO, and I don't say any of this to put anybody else down, like you do you, right? But for me, I'm very intentionally building a fractional COO solopreneurship that supports the life that I am choosing to live. And that's kind of the long and short of it. Like it's not more complicated than that.

SPEAKER_00: 35:50

Yeah. Yeah. No, as you're talking, I'm thinking about that too, right? I think there's been, Part of me that's interested in more exposure and being well-known and seen as the expert. And I think as you're describing this, I'm thinking, I think there's really my preference is a smaller number of people that I can make a deep impact for and really find value in what we're doing together versus a bigger number of people who just see the outside of who I am or what I say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:24

Yeah, it's hard, though, because we live in a world that doesn't reward that, right? Like, externally. Right,

SPEAKER_00: 36:31

yeah. I guess it just depends on the reward that's interesting to you. The bike ride to the beach with a bottle of rosé, like, that's a boss move. Yeah, at 3 o'clock in

SPEAKER_02: 36:40

the afternoon, why not? Totally,

SPEAKER_00: 36:42

right? Yeah, I mean, I have two dogs, and one is highly motivated by a piece of food. The other is like, don't throw treats at me.

SPEAKER_02: 36:52

What?

SPEAKER_00: 36:53

Rub my belly, but don't throw treats at me. There you go. So yeah, it's just what's motivating for us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:03

And that's true. That's true. But I have nothing against people who want to build little agencies. I've been there. I've had a team. I've managed the agony of running payroll every two weeks and worrying about people's health care and having to lay people off and navigating pandemics. And now you've got tariffs and I don't want to do that again. I saw that movie. I'm good. Don't need to watch it again.

SPEAKER_00: 37:24

Yeah, it's a very reasonable business model, right? It works. People have been doing it for a long time. It

SPEAKER_01: 37:31

works.

SPEAKER_00: 37:32

But does it work for everybody? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:34

Right, right. And it is true. Like there is a limit to the scalability of your fractional work. So I am intentional in that I am building a portfolio career. So I also do workshops. where I'm doing like a one-to-many approach. I do a bit of coaching. So all of my income isn't coming from my fractional COO work because I don't want to be working 40, 50 hours a week, right? So it's the math. I'm always trying to math is how do I work 30 hours a week, earn the income I desire so that I can achieve my goals. So that's the math I'm always playing with, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 38:08

Exactly. You know, you described your portfolio in exactly the same way that I think about mine. I have a little bit of coaching. Yeah. I love event-based stuff because it's a one-time thing. It pays well and you distribute a lot of value to a lot of people pretty quickly. And then part of that also needs to be my fractional customer base. But yeah, it's not all fractional. So I wanted to ask you, and now it seems like the right time, number of fractional customers that you will work with at one given time. How do you think

SPEAKER_01: 38:44

about that? yeah so usually it's about three so three fractional people at any given time on top of that i might have like a monthly workshop and uh a speaking engagement here or there um and then i often i do what i call like sprints so i'll go into a company and just work for that with them for four weeks um and help them figure out like an operational challenge so i kind of do an audit and i kind of understand okay Here's my assessment of your organization. This is the low-hanging fruit, the things you need to tackle in the next 30 days if you want to start moving the needle. But all of that said, I have a rule that I can't start with two clients at the same time, right? So if I have three clients, two of them I have had for a couple months. It's because those first four weeks as a fractional COO, you are just getting so deep in the weeds. Um, and if there's any COOs listening, the way we're wired is like, we want to fix all the shit. Like we see all the problems and we're like, Ooh, thanks for me to fix. Right. And so it can be really overwhelming if you're starting two clients at the same time and basically impossible, uh, because you're just too like amped up trying to, to fix problems. Um, especially those initial problems. And it's crucial that, you are really nailing those first four weeks so that your client wants to continue to work with you, right?

SPEAKER_00: 40:08

So I would say, yes. So I

SPEAKER_01: 40:11

would say those three clients is pretty much my max as far as fractional monthly retainers go. And I never onboard two clients at the same time. I at least, oh, I aim for like six weeks just because that means that I've got settled in with the one and then I could theoretically start with another.

SPEAKER_00: 40:28

Yeah, no, that's really smart to structure it that way. I haven't had so much demand that I've ever needed to schedule things that way. But I can totally understand the emotional and physical exhaustion that comes with onboarding. You're just taking in so much information. You're meeting so many new people. You're trying to prioritize all the stuff that you want to fix and need to fix. And the stress of, am I delivering well enough for my customer

SPEAKER_01: 40:58

to...

SPEAKER_00: 41:00

Continue this engagement. That's important. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like

SPEAKER_01: 41:04

a work contract. Like you want to keep them happy so that they say, yes, yeah, we want you to stay on board after the first 60, 90 days.

SPEAKER_00: 41:11

Yeah. So that's really, really critical. And I don't know if you feel this way too, but I think I've learned from my last few onboardings is metering what you deliver. Oh, yeah. Because if you grand slam home run all during the first month, that's the expectation. And that's impossible to maintain.

SPEAKER_01: 41:30

Yeah, but it would be really hard for me to take my foot off the gas and be like, I'm not going to... Yeah, that would be basically impossible. I'm not an overachiever, but I just like to get work done. I like to do good work. Yeah, I don't worry about that too much. I generally... Every time I have a client engagement, I always start out with a 30, 60, 90 days. And I am... borderline insane about hitting those milestones like if i'm off by like three days like i'm playing on my catholic upbringing but like i would be up all night like not sleeping oh my god i can't believe i missed out milestone um so i can be pretty intense about like we're getting this shit done

SPEAKER_00: 42:16

you know yeah um but maybe not stacking too many things in that 90 day window right like

SPEAKER_01: 42:22

No, they wait. Like I like meter it to, I can do this 60 day goal now, but let me focus on these other things. Um, and you know, that brings up a good point about kind of like time management and energy management and boundaries and all that stuff. Um, and having to be really intentional about that and not having been intentional about it in the past. Um, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 42:44

Hmm. That's good. Um, I'm just watching our, our time here. Um, Are there, is there anything that, okay, two questions. First one, anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I did or you want to talk about, but I didn't give you the chance to?

SPEAKER_01: 43:04

So I would say, and I think this is especially important for fractional COOs because of the way we're wired, that it's really, really important to set and establish and hold good boundaries and from before your client even signs in the dotted line. So I put into my proposals before a client has even agreed to work with me, a little blurb about boundaries, about how I work. I work remotely. I communicate via Slack. My clients don't have my phone number. I answer, like you can expect answers from me within this timeframe. If you message me at 5 p.m. on a Friday, you're not going to hear from me until Monday. Like don't expect to. I do mention, you know, I'm balancing a roster of other clients. just to put it all out there. So there's no confusion that when I come on, and they can't access me, you know, day and night, and they can't just pop on a call call for a quick chat, like, and I do that to protect my to protect my energy levels. I'm actually quite introverted, even though I have an opinion about everything, my energy is, I'm quite introverted. And Too much FaceTime every day really drains me. And so if I don't protect my energy levels, no client is getting the best of me, right? So it serves both of us. So I would say, especially those newbie fractional COOs and maybe the people who've been doing it a while, it's so hard for us to say no to stuff because we just want to fix things. That's how we're wired. We want to get in there and fix. And so you've got to push back and say, this is my boundary. If people are asking you to do stuff outside of your scope, going to do that right now, but it's not a bad idea. And I'm going to park it over here. And if I have time, I'll get to it. But that definitely took me a minute to learn. There were clients where I just let them call me day and night. I dropped everything to do whatever they needed. And that's just a recipe for burnout.

SPEAKER_00: 44:57

Yeah. Good. And the second question is, if there is a fractional C, anything O, who could really benefit from working alongside a COO. How do they find you? You already said LinkedIn, but yeah, where's the best place to reach you? Yeah, right. And follow along.

SPEAKER_01: 45:21

Yeah, definitely LinkedIn. That is the one and only place to reach me. You won't get through to me on any other socials. And I don't have a website. I know that's crazy. I've got one started in Squarespace. And now that I'm kind of rounding out my portfolio career, I do realize like, okay, a website's actually really helpful here because the whole LinkedIn format for your jobs is really not geared towards fractional consulting, freelancing type work, right? Yeah, it looks awkward, doesn't it? It looks super awkward. You look like a job hacker, right? And that's not what I am. I'm self-employed. And so, yeah, eventually I'll get that website to get there, but LinkedIn for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 46:00

Great. All right. Well, thanks for joining us. Thank you for staying up a little late to hang out with the French podcast, Mary Alice. My pleasure. Great having you. And thank you for being a friend of the show. Catch you again next

SPEAKER_01: 46:12

time. Take care. Bye-bye.